Datsun Roadster Forum-311s.org

I am a little surprised someone else hadn't posted this yet. In today's e-blast from Hagerty there is a nice little article on Japanese Car values and cars to watch.
The 67.5 Roadster came in nicely at number 4 of the 5 listed. And they got the facts right the first time too!

http://www.hagerty.com/Classic-car-arti ... 05-15-2013" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I am not surprised.

The combination of the low profile and the 2000 engine that the 67.5 features is the best of the Datsun roadsters in its original form.

Earlier and later models may have their attributes, but the original 67.5 is pure sports car aesthetically and in performance.

While the appreciation for the 67.5 may be the high water mark, the appreciation for other roadsters is sure to follow, I think.

We should all feel good about the positive recognition, unless, of course, we are hoping to buy on the cheap.

My guess is the cheap is about to become relative.

Bob wrote: My guess is the cheap is about to become relative.

The new guy catches on fast . If you want a cheap roadster, get it soon. I figure 5 years and we are looking at TR6/TR250 range prices and you're not driving it home for less than $10K

dbrick wrote:

Bob wrote: My guess is the cheap is about to become relative.

The new guy catches on fast . If you want a cheap roadster, get it soon. I figure 5 years and we are looking at TR6/TR250 range prices and you're not driving it home for less than $10K

Dave, I think we might already be there. A quick look on ebay has the highest price for a TR6 at $38500, the cheapest is $7K. The TR6 is far more common therefor, you will see more for sale. If you look at decent 2l prices, they are falling between $7K and call it $15K. The nice 2Ls start at $15K and go up from there. No they aren't quite bringing $38K, but its not like they haven't in the past however.

I'm seeing a similar trend with the E30 M3. I think I saw a comment that the price on them has gone up 15% in the past year (It might have been higher, it was from Sports car Marketplace. I can't find the quote now though.) ! Like the M3, the roadster is a limited production model, with some pretty significant racing history. This history is starting to become known to more of the public. I don't know that the roadster will become the icon that the M3 is, but you never know. I got lucky with the M3. It was on the market for months, I bought it for well less than what it was worth. I got it appraised and was shocked, a little shy of $29K. Now, I bet I could sell the car for almost original sticker price. (Not bad for a 25 year old car that was expensive to start with.) There were about 15K 2L roadsters built over 2.5 years, there were a little over 14K M3s built between '87 and '91. Interestingly enough, both have been getting a lot of press lately.

Will

Those of us who've been into these cool little cars for decades are probably nodding that the rest of the world is catching on. I know that's how I feel.

Over on a 311 email reflector, the Hagerty valuation was posted and a discussion has included the impact on the market of highly-modified 311s. The premise is that since these cars were inexpensive for such a long period of time, they were expendable in the sense of owners not feeling much reluctance to make projects out of them.

In fact, when I joined this board a few years ago, this matter was an unfortunate early introduction I had with Alvin. We got off to a bad start when I disagreed with his opinion he posted about the collectible nature of the cars.

Although I believe we smoothed that one out, I still feel the 311s may suffer to some extent the same loss that was seen among pre-war Detroit cars, many of which were turned into street rods, custom lead sleds, and so on. It made things difficult in the years that followed when others began looking for original examples of those cars.

More recently, the Datsun 510, especially the 2-Door, was cited in the email reflector discussion as having suffered the same problem.

In the next 5-10 years, if our forecasts about rising values come true, the modified batch of 311s will still appeal to those who are into that part of the old car hobby. But major mods remove those cars from the general interest collector market, and that will inevitably push the values higher among cars that have been held more-or-less stock, original and restored with originality in mind. And the stronger market for such cars in turn may prompt people to hesitate about making a project out of a car that today is the way it came from the factory.

FairladySPL wrote:Those of us who've been into these cool little cars for decades are probably nodding that the rest of the world is catching on. I know that's how I feel.
........... And the stronger market for such cars in turn may prompt people to hesitate about making a project out of a car that today is the way it came from the factory.

Paul,

Interesting analysis and perspective. I agree with and support your value escalation prediction but what roadster owner wouldn't! Lol. Serious value appreciation might be 5-10 years out and will probably coincide with other economic factors.

Will

Benchmark comparison to the TR6 and (possibly the Austin Healy 3000) is valid as they represented the Roadster's contemporary imported competitors. Our roadsters will rise to similar value levels.

Interestingly that on one of my first drives a TR6 chased me into a parking lot to stop and chat. The driver and passenger were two young ladies taking their father's newly restored mint BRG 1970 for a cruise. They offered to swap vehicles because they liked the Datsun's curves and nicer shade of green way better. I wonder what their father's reaction would have been if they'd returned in a Datsun! I was not tempted in the least.

FairladySPL wrote:Those of us who've been into these cool little cars for decades are probably nodding that the rest of the world is catching on. I know that's how I feel.

...snip...

FairladySPL wrote:In the next 5-10 years, if our forecasts about rising values come true, the modified batch of 311s will still appeal to those who are into that part of the old car hobby. But major mods remove those cars from the general interest collector market, and that will inevitably push the values higher among cars that have been held more-or-less stock, original and restored with originality in mind. And the stronger market for such cars in turn may prompt people to hesitate about making a project out of a car that today is the way it came from the factory.

You're probably right, but I think a rising tide raises all ships. A lowered, swapped ratrod is never going to be worth what a concours-level restoration is, but (speaking only for myself) I wanted a unique, interesting vehicle that wasn't obnoxiously expensive to make my own. In ten years I may be kicking myself for "ruining" a piece of automotive history...but with any luck I will have had 9+ years of driving enjoyment out of my car.

ReddTrain wrote: ...I think a rising tide raises all ships.

A lowered, swapped ratrod is never going to be worth what a concours-level restoration is...

But as you point out, value is what it means to the driver/owner of a modified car, and you're exactly right in obtaining that value the way you see fit.

Someone on here a while ago dismissed a posting that declared we are only "caretakers" of these cars, and that somehow we are responsible for passing them along to future drivers and owners in a respectful condition.

I think there's a middle ground, and the discussion about "matching numbers" got to it pretty well. It's a lot easier to not feel guilty about swapping and modifying a car whose condition means it's not likely to become a restoration candidate.

When I joined this site I was fascinated by the number and variety of swaps on the road. And modifications to some extent have been part of the 311 scene the 50 years they've been around.

There's room for both, in my opinion, and as the market pushes prices higher, we all stand to benefit from the visibility. Folks on the outside looking in, on the other hand, may have to cough up larger coin to join the fun ...

FairladySPL wrote: There's room for both, in my opinion, and as the market pushes prices higher, we all stand to benefit from the visibility. Folks on the outside looking in, on the other hand, may have to cough up larger coin to join the fun ...

Well said.

FairladySPL wrote: Although I believe we smoothed that one out, I still feel the 311s may suffer to some extent the same loss that was seen among pre-war Detroit cars, many of which were turned into street rods, custom lead sleds, and so on. It made things difficult in the years that followed when others began looking for original examples of those cars.

More recently, the Datsun 510, especially the 2-Door, was cited in the email reflector discussion as having suffered the same problem.

I don't fore/see the difficulty finding original examples of our cars.
When I was tasked with finding Datsuns for the upcoming Marin-Sonoma Concours D' Elegance I had no problem rounding up fine, "original" examples of Datsun Roadsters. In fact, I think the roadster will be the best represented of all Japanese cars in this exhibit.
On the other hand, finding an un-modified Datsun 510 was impossible. Everyone I know with an S30 wouldn't pass as 100% for this show as well.
We have a dedicated following and professional support for preserving/restoring our cars to original spec. I don't see shops specializing in restoring 510s back to stock, it's the opposite. Maybe it's bad comparison using the 510, but with respect to the "hey you keep modifying these cars and no original ones will be left" mentality... I don't see it.

FairladySPL wrote:I still feel the 311s may suffer to some extent the same loss that was seen among pre-war Detroit cars, many of which were turned into street rods, custom lead sleds, and so on. It made things difficult in the years that followed when others began looking for original examples of those cars.

I do agree with this statement. The low sticker price of these cars almost made them disposable. I've seen plenty of whacky swaps, conversions, and cars just sitting rotting in fields. It seems people would drive them, and when something major, or not even that major happened, they just parked them in a field, barn, or driveway and moved on. I think we should preserve as many original copies as we can.

Well kept roadsters (regardless of originality) can only rise in value - but strangely slower than the UK variants.
The 1.5 mill 2000GT certainly draws attention to Japanese products, but these were limited production, high quality motor cars.

But as to whether roadsters (of any era) will become COLLECTOR cars - depends upon originality and accuracy (IMHO) and perception.

Desirable - hugely - but they still live in the fog of 'what is that'.

We are still seeing 'barn finds' of pretty trashed roadsters - parts cars only - generally - 'cos it takes a BUNCH of loot to restore these puppies.

Frankly, on a personal note, I hope they stay in the shadow - since I would rather they stay as desirable to those that know, or will find out, and not start appearing at Scottsdale.

FWIW

Wow.

Not sure about what I am reading.

Does anyone reading this beside me think we may be holding back the value of the Datsun Roadster.

I submit this.

If we, who are supposed to be true Datsun Roadster aficionados, and I believe we are, can not appreciate the true value of the Datsun Roadster, who can?

At some point, and I think we are there, we have to speak up, and claim the Datsun Roadster as a true collectible.

After all, it is a great and timeless sports car, with an excellent race heritage, and a relative few are left in excellent condition.

Sounds collectible to me.

This may be a case of the true believers questioning their belief.

Hope not.

Skyman wrote: I do agree with this statement. The low sticker price of these cars almost made them disposable

You do realize it was the same as buying a $18,000 car today right? I don't know if an $18,000 toy is considered disposable.

datsun1500 wrote:

Skyman wrote: I do agree with this statement. The low sticker price of these cars almost made them disposable

You do realize it was the same as buying a $18,000 car today right? I don't know if an $18,000 toy is considered disposable.

The median income for men in 1965 was $28,599. In 2005 the median income was $41,386. Not that big of change given the time span. I think the roadsters in 1967 were going new from the dealer for around $2K.

Skyman wrote:

datsun1500 wrote:

Skyman wrote: I do agree with this statement. The low sticker price of these cars almost made them disposable

You do realize it was the same as buying a $18,000 car today right? I don't know if an $18,000 toy is considered disposable.

The median income for men in 1965 was $28,599. In 2005 the median income was $41,386. Not that big of change given the time span. I think the roadsters in 1967 were going new from the dealer for around $2K.

The $28k median figure is adjusted for inflation. It was actually about $6-7k unadjusted in '65.