Anyone still racing a 1600 in SCCA?

[rahjr60]

I'd like to talk to anyone still running a 1600 in FP In SCCA. I want to know if we can still be competitive.

[jr02518]

I would like to also tag along on this conversation. On a local note we have VARA, www.vararacing.com

They embrace the older cars, do not tolerate "rubbing is racing" and are looking for cars with stock fenders. The cage build is my first question?

David

[theunz]

F production will put you up against Miata guys willing to spend near $20,000 for a transmission, probably $30,000 for an engine. How competitive do you want to be?

[redroadster]

The steering shaft problem should back you out of it IMO ....it did to Roadster racers that came to our Datsun dealers, Racers days in the late 70s, ( we hosted the scca Datsun racers going E in the spring and W in the fall , customer work wasn't scheduled , the race teams had the race cars out in front and got jobber prices on parts )
The steering shaft acts like a baseball ,hitting a swinging bat which is the steering box case and this at somewhat slow speeds

[tjp]

Bill Wessel was competitive up until he stopped a handful of years ago. He should chime in.

[gpdatsun]

Hey Al, yes, you can be competitive in FP with the 1600 but it takes ALOT of effort to run against the Miatas and Acuras that have emerged as the dominant cars in the class. I stopped racing SCCA in 2013, but still have my car (ex Col. Joe Hauser) and run it locally in WI vintage events (and yes, it's still in SCCA trim).

What it takes:
1600 Mikuni Solex manifold and 44 PHH Mikunis
3 main block and crank drilled for better oiling
ported polished head with larger valves, flycut to accept pop-up pistons
Custom cam (cast cams break), lifters, Isky push rods and roller rockers, stiffer springs
Carillo rods and JE pistons
7-quart pan and baffle
EI distributor and ignition upgrades
larger water pump pulley, larger radiator, 2L crank pulley
Stepped headers with good collector and straight exhaust
Upgraded suspension (coilovers), custom ball joints, heim joints, front bar
Master pedal set, Z-car front calipers, rear disks, solid rotors
lightweight flywheel, 7.5" single or 5.5" double disk clutch
Close ratio trans (Quaife Rocket box), 4.63 and 4.38 rear gears (welded or LSD)
fiberglass body parts (car weighs alot), good cage, slicks and wheels

Lots of time, effort and money
good driver helps also!

The last competitive roadster effort I'm aware of was Grayson Upchurch in Sam Neave (LNA Enterprises) prepared Al Gast's 2L roadster. They won at the Mitty at Road Atlanta in 2018 (last time I saw Al alive) and qualified 7th on the EP grid at Indy for the 2021 runoffs before a mis-shift and first corner collision took him out.

[Gregs672000]

I'm not a Racer but thank you Bill for listing all of that out, it really gives some idea of what it takes. I also want to thank you for successfully flying the Roadster flag for all those years and even today. As a teen I'm pretty sure I saw your car in the Datsun Parts Comp Catalog while shopping for parts for my '73 620 PU, and I did not know Roadsters existed. "I'm gonna have one of those some day" I thought. A few years later I found my 67 2000 under a pile of snow while in college at WSU and my life changed. Shortly after that I met up with a guy selling a bunch of Comp stuff, and away I went!

Sunny side up Bill!

[gpdatsun]

Since you got me on the topic, here's text of an e-mail I wrote back in 2012 to Elliott Harvey when he asked me how to prep a 1600. Take this knowing it's 10 years out of date and things change...

I'm honored, my friend in roadster racing! You've been THE solo champion of
the roadster world for longer than I've been running. I had the good
fortune to start talking with Joe Hauser, because I had a street 1600 and a
club racer/vintage 1600 and was ready to step up to a National car. When he
said he was ready to sell his car in '99, I bought him out and vowed to run
it just as hard as he had for as long as I was able. Joe is still around
btw and we e-mail occasionally.

I'd be happy to help anyway I can. Joe always ran the 3-main block (#'s <
40,000), but the cranks need to be drilled to live beyond 7,000 for any
length of time. He put up alot of his race tips on Rob Beddington's pages,
including the crank drilling. 3-main bearings are rare, though 5-main and
rod bearings are plentiful. Joe used lightened stock rods with stock bolts;
I have gone to Carillo's (saves the weight of one rod). I just had a run of
10 pistons made from JE (the Nick Diblasi reference). The problem with the
1600 is the tall compression height, but JE did what they could to lighten,
modernize the design. Rings are 1.2mm top ring, 1.5mm mid ring, and 3.0mm
oil rings.
I still use a cam design Joe came up with called the BL4 that he had ground
from Chambers (R C Automotive, 1414 Ritchie Marlboro Rd # A2, Capitol
Heights, Maryland 20743 (301)3508408). Joe and I use Ford y-block lifters
and Isky D-013 pushrods (old Nissan comp 99996-B1051).

In the heads you have to pocket ie, flycut the combustion chamber like as
described in the Sharp 1600 manual to accept the piston pop-up. And flycut
your valve pockets in the piston tops. I still use RD Spring #1002, which
was the old Nissan comp B-210 spring 99996-H1133 and works with the
aluminum retainer 99996-H1131. Not sure if these parts are still available
from Comp. I buy springs straight from RD Spring and I've gone to titanium
retainers and locks. Valves are also titanium, but Joe would use air cooled
1600 VW valves (very close in head diameter to GP spec 1.69" and 1.38" and
very close in overall length to stock) with VW locks that worked with the
aluminum retainer. The stock rockers work fine and Stan Chernoff has very
nice rebuilt sets. I recently bought a set of roller tipped aluminum
rockers he had, not sure if he has any more, but he could have another set
made. I use the Boone design distributor (which Stan also does), but have
wanted to go to a crankfire for some time now. Still use the wet sump and
2L pump.

For gaskets and other stuff you'll need, the H20 forklift parts places or
your favorite roadster vendor can help. E-Bay has alot of stuff when you
know what to search for. Good luck with the new solo class, I'll be
watching. You know there is also the Datsun Roadster race pages but they've
been quiet for some time now...and just as I switch over to them to give
you the link, it's gone! Some server error...hope it's not gone for good.
Oh well.

All the best,

Bill

[S Allen]

Bill,

I was trying to work with with the owner of the old racing forum to move it and archive it here at 311s.org. He responded positively about it once but I never heard from him again. I have emailed multiple times with no response. I had it all setup on my end. I just needed admin access so I could copy the database. The forum software was way out of date even back then. Too bad as it would have been a good resource,

Steve

[rahjr60]

Thanks everyone! I have most of the engine mods that Bill suggests but in a 5 main block. Not a lot of the suspension changes yet. I do have straight 2.5" exhaust, but using the standard issue header. Rear is a welded 4.62, I also have recently acquired an LSD 4.62 and a welded 4.11. As with all racing the $$$ has a lot to do with it. I can't see myself ever getting to Runoffs level at my age (62 with 6 yrs experience) or budget, but I'd like to be more competitive at Regional level and local Majors. I have purchased the Techno Toy front brake kit, but haven't had time to install it yet. I have fiberglass fenders, hood and trunk lid. I also have quarters, but haven't had time to do the modifications needed to install those yet either.

There is definitely work to do on the driver, but I'm trying to dedicate more track time this year, possibly including some coaching. Aside from driver, I see two issues that I think could help - The car is way heavy. Even with the glass parts, I'm more than 200# over the 1824 minimum. Doors are hollowed out, very minimal dash, gauges, mirrors, etc. I'm just not sure where else to safely lose weight. The other area is trans/rear. I unfortunately don't have a close ratio. I do have a ZX close ratio trans available if that might be better than the roadster trans. Sam Neave rebuilt my trans this off season and I was discussing the rear end situation with him and he does not believe that the 1600 (180 HP on Rebello dyno) will pull the 4.11. Any thoughts here? My issue is that I seem to get outrun on the long straights at VIR and Roebling. I know part of that is my exit speed of the last corner. I'm not great exiting Oak Tree, but I feel pretty strong at Hogpen and also at T9 at Roebling and still I get caught from behind frequently. It is frustrating in my early development to be able to complete passes in the corners only to give it back on the straights. Thanks again for any input!

[zippy67roadster]

Thanks everyone! I have most of the engine mods that Bill suggests but in a 5 main block. Not a lot of the suspension changes yet. I do have straight 2.5" exhaust, but using the standard issue header. Rear is a welded 4.62, I also have recently acquired an LSD 4.62 and a welded 4.11. As with all racing the $$$ has a lot to do with it. I can't see myself ever getting to Runoffs level at my age (62 with 6 yrs experience) or budget, but I'd like to be more competitive at Regional level and local Majors. I have purchased the Techno Toy front brake kit, but haven't had time to install it yet. I have fiberglass fenders, hood and trunk lid. I also have quarters, but haven't had time to do the modifications needed to install those yet either.

There is definitely work to do on the driver, but I'm trying to dedicate more track time this year, possibly including some coaching. Aside from driver, I see two issues that I think could help - The car is way heavy. Even with the glass parts, I'm more than 200# over the 1824 minimum. Doors are hollowed out, very minimal dash, gauges, mirrors, etc. I'm just not sure where else to safely lose weight. The other area is trans/rear. I unfortunately don't have a close ratio. I do have a ZX close ratio trans available if that might be better than the roadster trans. Sam Neave rebuilt my trans this off season and I was discussing the rear end situation with him and he does not believe that the 1600 (180 HP on Rebello dyno) will pull the 4.11. Any thoughts here? My issue is that I seem to get outrun on the long straights at VIR and Roebling. I know part of that is my exit speed of the last corner. I'm not great exiting Oak Tree, but I feel pretty strong at Hogpen and also at T9 at Roebling and still I get caught from behind frequently. It is frustrating in my early development to be able to complete passes in the corners only to give it back on the straights. Thanks again for any input!

I run an FP 1600 in Vintage races with CVAR here in Texas and occasionally with SVRA. I have prepped my motor as described above. I ran with VARA for years before I moved and it was a blast. My issue is still trying to lighten the car as mine is about 200lbs over the weight allowed as well. In vintage you can't run glass parts so I have all steel. I have gutted the doors and removed weight where I can but with the addition of my overbuilt cage I don't know where else to look for weight reduction. I plan on having the cage removed and a lighter, smaller one installed as I really don't need double door bars and a few extra braces i had added. It might get rind of 100lbs but still need to figure out where the other 100 can be cut from.

[jr02518]

Brian,

Please share the cage design you settle on, that would really help. As for having to use an all steel car...

Rodger Penske used a technical process that might work. Dipping the frame longer than the body might be the key...

David

[rahjr60]

One other area for weight loss is the battery. Currently running a full size battery in the trunk and no alternator. Thoughts on going to smaller battery with alternator? Or just a lightweight battery? If no alt, I need a battery that will run 45 - 50 minutes. Thanks again,

[Cyclewrks]

I run a Oddyssey PC925 battery on the street and it has been fine for a number of starts and hours of running when the alternator went out. I am going to use one of the newer LiFe motorcycle batteries on track days as it will drop another 23lbs of battery weight (PC925 is 25lbs, LiFe Battery is 2.3lbs!). Friend is running one of the LiFe batteries in his 911 and it will give him a weekend of racing and practice.

[Nded]

I'm trying to get enough roadster owners to come to ZCON 2024 in Tampa. A chance for all of us to participate in an SCCA type event with a dedicated Autocross category for us. Details posted in the Events forum.

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